Wealth Beyond Riches: Building Prosperity With Purpose, Values, and Impact

Everything You Need to Know About Prenuptial Agreements with Courtney Greenberg (Ep.28)

• Abbey Henderson, CFP®

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What does it truly mean to align your resources with your values? 

Let’s explore how prenuptial agreements can play a crucial role in securing not just financial assets, but personal values and relational dynamics.

Abbey Henderson, CFP®, CEO Wealth Advisor & Coach, chats with Courtney Greenberg, a partner specializing in family law at Rubin and Rudman. Together, they unravel the complexities and misconceptions surrounding prenups, shedding light on their real-world applications beyond the celebrity headlines. 

From crafting an agreement to how it influences estate planning, Abbey and Courtney make a case for the prenup's practical use in both predicted and unforeseen circumstances.

Abbey and Courtney discuss:

  • Understanding prenuptial agreements [03:15]
  • Alternative assets such as crypto and startups [05:04]
  • The emotional dynamics of prenups [08:12]
  • Practical steps in creating a prenup [11:18]
  • Enforceability and coordination with estate plans [19:22]
  • Financial implications and legal considerations [24:01]
  • And more!

Connect with Abbey Henderson: 

Connect with Courtney Greenberg:

About Our Guest:

Courtney Greenberg is a Partner in Rubin and Rudman’s Family Law and Litigation departments. She has extensive experience guiding and advising clients through the legalities of emotionally charged situations, such as divorce, modifications and contempt matters, child custody, child support, alimony, removal cases, paternity actions, as well as the appointment of guardianships. She supports her clients and advocates on their behalf both in the courtroom, as well as with the assistance of alternative dispute resolution, where appropriate.

Additionally, Courtney is skilled in drawing up complex and thoughtful prenuptial and postnuptial agreements aimed at protecting generational wealth, future inheritances and premarital assets. Courtney also enjoys helping clients through momentous occasions by implementing legal safeguards for alternative family-building methods, including donor and surrogacy agreements and pre-birth parental adjudication.

Courtney is a compassionate and dedicated attorney who understands the often difficult situations her clients face. She educates them on the legal aspects of their cases with sensitivity and honesty, empowering them to make well-informed decisions. She is committed to protecting her clients’ interests and those of their loved ones.

Outside of her work at Rubin and Rudman and when not spending time with her husband and young children, she plays an active role in overseeing the Greater Boston Legal Services’ Associate Drive which focuses on raising funds for victims of domestic violence who fall significantly under the federal poverty line.

Voiceover [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Wealth Beyond Riches with Abbey Henderson, CEO, wealth advisor, and coach at Abaris Financial Group. In this podcast, we help generous, fun, and passionate professionals overcome their biggest financial concerns while leveling up their lifestyles based on their values. We do this by exploring the five levers, which represent the diverse resources each person possesses throughout their lifetime. These levers encompass finances, health, mindset, relationships, and time, offering a holistic approach to personal development and growth. Join us on this transformative journey as Abbey and her guests draw from years of experience to guide you in achieving your life goals while staying true to your values.

But that's not all. This podcast will equip you not just to build personal wealth, but also to understand how your prosperity can contribute to the betterment of the world around you. By exploring strategies for giving back and making a positive impact, we'll empower you to create a life of significance and leave a lasting legacy of positive change.

Wendy McConnell [00:01:07]:
Hello and welcome to the Wealth Beyond Riches podcast with your host, Abbey Henderson, where we talk about enriching your life in every way. I'm Wendy McConnell.

Hi, Abbey. How are you?

Abbey Henderson [00:01:18]:
I am well. How are you?

Wendy McConnell [00:01:20]:
Oh, I'm good.

I'm hanging in there. So it's spring. Almost.

Abbey Henderson [00:01:26]:
Almost. And it's a Friday.

Wendy McConnell [00:01:27]:
Yes. Good news. Looking on the positive side. I love it. So we do have a guest today.

Abbey Henderson [00:01:33]:
We do. And as usual, we have a powerhouse woman guest. And I'm really excited to talk to our guest about prenuptial agreements because as everyone I think who listens knows here at Abaris, we believe it's really important to align your resources with your values and your vision for the future. And this is just a place where, if you have a value around family, around security, and this is right where aligning your resources with those things comes together.

So I am so excited to have Courtney Greenberg with us today. Welcome, Courtney.

Courtney Greenberg [00:02:23]:
Hi. Thank you both for having me. I'm very excited.

Abbey Henderson [00:02:26]:
Yeah, of course. So you are a partner in Ruben and Redmond's family law and litigation departments, and you have extensive experience guiding and advising clients through emotionally charged situations, such as divorce modifications, contempt matters, child custody support, alimony, all the things, you name it. And you got too many awards to name, but I'll just name a couple. We like to do that. You've been on Boston Magazine's top lawyer list, Best lawyer ones to watch.

And you are on the Mass Rising star list, too. So that's amazing. Thank you so much for joining us.

Courtney Greenberg [00:03:11]:
Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to talking about it.

Abbey Henderson [00:03:15]:
So let's start at the beginning. Tell us what a prenuptial agreement is.

Courtney Greenberg [00:03:20]:
Sure. So a prenup is. You are planning for two potential circumstances in the future.

Right. It's on the eve of a marriage, and it is planning for either divorce or death. A prenup can plan for both of those things or one of those things. So it would be fixing someone's assets and liabilities and their interest in them and their rights in the future. So with, you know, divorce on the rise, it would be potentially protecting either some family inheritance or wealth or income that you've earned prior to your marriage, whether it would be in the event of divorce or in the event of death.

Abbey Henderson [00:04:09]:
And I think it can actually cover things even beyond that, like who gets the dog.

Courtney Greenberg [00:04:19]:
It can. I'm sure you've heard of some celebrity ones. So while most people don't like this answer, especially if you're a pet person, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts treats pets as chattel, which is property. Right.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is not going to entertain a custody agreement in a divorce or fight over custody of an animal. However, if you choose to fix those rights in a prenuptial agreement, they will honor what you've agreed to.

Abbey Henderson [00:04:54]:
Got it. Is there anything else that falls into a prenup that maybe isn't what people sort of automatically think of in terms of assets and income?

Courtney Greenberg [00:05:04]:
Yeah, I mean, I think what it really comes down to is more alternative assets, too, with the existing of crypto and honestly with startups on the rise, I mean, it's not that startups haven't always existed, but what we're seeing more are a lot of people that are in the startup world protecting that equity interest in the startup in case the business were to boom.

They don't want the majority owner of this startup to then lose their majority interest in the event of a divorce or something like that. I mean, you're also seeing things where it's a lot of the prenups are also driven to protect, if this is a second marriage, you know, to make sure that children from a prior relationship are also protected and things are going to them maybe before their new spouse or just in a different manner that might not be typical otherwise.

Abbey Henderson [00:05:57]:
And you sort of mentioned before, I think when people think prenups, they think of the headlines with, you know, celebrities who may or may not have had them. JLO and Ben Affleck come to mind in recent news. And they, I think if I remember correctly, they did have one, and that was sort of attributed as to why?

It seemed to go smoothly.

Courtney Greenberg [00:06:18]:
Correct.

Abbey Henderson [00:06:20]:
But are there other situations where this can make sense? I know you touched on a couple just now.

Courtney Greenberg [00:06:26]:
Sure.

So, you know, prenups are not just for wealthy people. I think we are seeing them more and more for a few reasons. Sometimes you will talk about, okay, there is some money coming down the line from family members and the contingency is you're only going to get this if you have a prenup and it's protected. Right. Like your grandmother or grandfather would not want this going to your ex spouse in the event of divorce.

So that is a more traditional reason for a prenup. But you're also seeing it with, you know, where people aren't necessarily getting married at 20 and 22 anymore. You're seeing it where, okay, well, maybe one person worked for 10 years prior to their marriage, 15 years, 20 years, and has huge RSUs or you know, stock that are in the middle of vesting or even just retirement and assets that they've accumulated or they spent money differently prior to the marriage and you're just protecting those rights. Another thing is, and this is almost the flip side, some people would be entering into a prenup to protect themselves from liability of the other. So think about if someone's carrying that debt from law to school, grad school, med school, you know, wanting to make sure that the other person is not stuck with it.

So sometimes these prenups are fixing one tiny little thing and that's it. And sometimes they're all encompassing.

Abbey Henderson [00:07:52]:
Do you think it's possible for the process of creating a prenup to be sort of a positive collaborative experience? Because sometimes I think of it as being sort of controversial and sometimes clients are afraid that it's sort of setting up a marriage for divorce from the get go.

Courtney Greenberg [00:08:12]:
I've heard that a lot.

You're not the first one to think that. And there is that stigma to it, I do think. You know, I've had clients that are so amicable doing it. I think the key is communication. Hopefully you have good communication if you're getting married.

And this will not create any wrinkles or waves. You know, also I think executing this or planning, planning for it a little further out than, you know, three weeks before your wedding definitely helps things because you have other stressors going on then that exacerbate things. But I think communication is key. If it's like, look, my family has a business interest, they want to make sure it stays in, you know, the family and doesn't go elsewhere in the event Things weren't to pan out then, you know, like, so we want to protect that. I recognize, you know, if I were to work for that business, it might change things.

So we can account for that in this, this prenup. Right. You know, maybe we protect my ownership interest, but if I end up being employed by it, then my income, you know, or alimony might be fair game and things like that. So I do think there's a way that the prenup can be handled in a cordial manner. I also think, you know, things can be reciprocal.

Right. There are things that don't need to be protected in the prenup. So we could say, all right, well, all of our income's fair game. You know, alimony would be on the table if things go south, but it would just be this one asset that's protected or something they collected or inherited or they feel very passionate about. So I do think you can do it if you handle it in the right manner.

I think that manner, you know, everybody is different. You have different personalities. Everyone's different in that sense. But I think if you can talk to one another before and you're not blindsiding someone with, hi, here's a prenup I want you to sign. We're getting married in five days.

Can you sign it? Very different story, right? I always tell clients if you want a prenup and if it's important to you, and let's say there is a disproportionate, there's a disparity in your income or disproportionate wealth or whatever the case, if this is important to you and your significant other cannot afford an attorney, I would advise you to spend money and give them money for an attorney now, because is the thousand, two thousand, five thousand dollars now worth the potential million dollar fight down the road in 25, 30 years? And that's what I say to you. Take a step back and think about that.

And I especially see that, you know, when you have someone coming to me and saying, well, my dad told me I had to get this prenup right, okay, well, if this is so important to your dad, then, and there's this much money at stake, then I'm going to advise you to tell your dad, if so and so can't afford an attorney, then it would be in their best interest to assist with meeting those. Because by both people having an attorney, a your significant other will feel protected as well. And it will help with enforceability on the back end of things.

Abbey Henderson [00:11:18]:
So maybe that's a Good segue to just talk a little bit logistically about how this typically unfolds. So step one is, I imagine one half of a couple is either asked by a.

By a family member or a friend, or maybe they've already been married once. And so probably one half is interested in a prenup. So step one is you either have an estate planning attorney that you already have a relationship, or you go find one. Is that right?

Courtney Greenberg [00:11:51]:
Generally, that's the way of the game.

An estate planning attorney or family law attorney. Right. To undertake or meet with and understand how it works.

Abbey Henderson [00:12:02]:
Got it. And if I.

Let's say I don't have a relationship with. With an attorney yet, what would I. What would I want to look for when choosing someone?

Courtney Greenberg [00:12:12]:
I think you want to look for someone that can meet you where you are, right. If you want a prenup on an isolated issue, and the attorney says, no, no, no, we're going to do it all this way.

And they're not willing to leave, like, their form or template that they use. I don't think, you know, I don't think all attorneys and people mesh perfectly. Right. It's a personality and compatibility game. So I think it's finding someone that will meet you where you want and help you get what you want.

Assuming what you want is something that would be enforceable is reasonable, you know, and is not just doing what you want and just taking your money. Because that does no good for anyone. Right. I mean, maybe the attorney in that circumstance, but not you in the long run. So I think that is key.

And someone that's willing to keep things calm, cool, collected, taking into consideration that emotions are high when doing this because it is a sensitive subject. And I get that.

Abbey Henderson [00:13:18]:
All right, so I've picked you as my attorney, and I've got my significant other on board. You touched on this already a little bit. Significant other.

We'll call him Dave. Dave should get his own attorney now so that we each sort of have separate representation.

Courtney Greenberg [00:13:34]:
What I typically do is I meet with my client, I ask them to fill out a questionnaire laying out all their assets, income liabilities, potential future inheritance, or something that might be coming down that they're seeking to protect. I try and find out some background. Are you and your significant other living together?

Are you living in one person's property, jointly owned property, things like that? How are expenses being paid for? Do you guys already have joint accounts? You know, you need context. Is this a first marriage, a second?

Are there children? Are there children born to the two of you or from prior relationships. There's a lot of pieces here, right? And then what I say is we go through and we start talking about, okay, off the bat, you know, what is it that your goals are for this prenup? What is it that you're looking to protect?

Or what is it that you want? And then I say, what are you worried about? Right? Then I go to my client and say, okay, I'm not asking for an answer today, but I want you to think about if you want this prenup only to survive or be valid in the event of divorce, right? Or separation, or do you want it in death, too?

And that's a big thing, because a lot of people, I think, actually come to you because they want it in the event of divorce, but they don't think about it in the event of death, right? And some people, you know, it's not uncommon. I put it, if they're happily married, as long as there's no matter pending in appropriate and family court, prenup dies with that person, right? And everything's. Sometimes it's not that way because it's really important for something to go, you know, back to a family member or stay down a certain line.

So we start talking about that. We talk about, you know, the dirty word alimony, and how that will be dealt with in the event of divorce. We talk about, you know, people's ages, is there a difference in age, things like that. Have you guys talked about children? If you have.

Have you talked about someone leaving the workforce? Because that's going to potentially change what I would advise regarding whether alimony should be waived or not. And then what happens is we take not a break in time. I then get to work and I start drafting, right? I work with my client.

We'll go back and forth with several iterations. We'll get it to a point where I say, okay, I think we're ready to present it to your significant other. If they don't have. They can wait to get an attorney if they want. Only one attorney is drafting the first draft of this agreement.

Then I would send it to the significant other or their attorney if they don't have attorney. You know, I'll give names of a few people that I've worked with that we've had really great cordial relationships with. And then we go from there, right? Opposing counsel and I might go back and forth on a few iterations. Why did you put this?

Why this? Or this one wants this? And then hopefully, you know, we're executing within a few weeks Thereafter, generally how it works. However, you know, the more communication, the better, you know, and it's helpful when you and your significant other are on the same page prior to them being handed a prenup. I could tell you stories.

Abbey Henderson [00:16:45]:
So. And then tell me a little bit then how. Because you said it can. It can either die at diet death or it can continue on. And then talk to me a little bit about how that then would fit in with someone's sort of quote, unquote estate plan.

Because hopefully, if you've been, you know, thoughtful enough that you're going down the road of a prenup, you probably, I think, would be on top of, you know, at least at some point getting an estate plan in place. You know, wills, trusts, power of attorney.

Courtney Greenberg [00:17:20]:
What would hope, Abbey? Right. Unfortunately, things, you know, things happen, right.

You know, you never know when something's going to happen. So if it is going to to die with death, it's just as simple as the prenup only comes into effect once an action is commenced in probate and family court. For, you know, in Massachusetts, we don't have legal separation. But whether it was a legal separation, a separation, a custody matter or a divorce matter, right. If there's nothing like that pending, then in the event of death, the prenup dies.

Now, if you have a stated plan, then the estate planned controls, right? Some people have it survive death. Some people have it survive death, which means everything they provided for would be this. Some people have it. So it's the same in the event of divorce or death.

Some people have it a little different, right? So they say in the event of, you know, divorce, everything joints going to be divided 50, 50, right. We each keep our own separate stuff. However, in the event of death, anything that's joint, my significant other gets 100% of, and they might get a, B and C of my separate property, but D, E and F would go back to my siblings or if I don't have children, nieces and nephews or things like that, or my business partner otherwise. And then what I typically do is because the reality is you're planning for the future and nobody knows what the future holds. I'd say, you know, this could of course, be modified in an estate plan, but it's important that the estate plan, in order for it to modify this agreement, for in the event of death, it needs to reference this agreement, it needs to reference the date. And I want that estate plan, which would already happen, be notarized and all of those things to make sure that it's very clear that the intent is for the estate plan to supersede the prenuptial agreement in the event of death.

Abbey Henderson [00:19:22]:
Got it. And what if that didn't happen?

Courtney Greenberg [00:19:25]:
Then the prenup's going to control in the event of death, assuming someone still has a copy of it and is seeking to enforce it.

Generally speaking, my office will always maintain a copy in the fireproof vault, and I typically give clients, you know, copies as well. And then, of course, there's electronic copies in this day and age as well.

Abbey Henderson [00:19:46]:
And is that, like, a common reason to end up in court? If someone didn't coordinate, had a prenup that survived, but didn't coordinate it with their estate plan, and now we've got sort of things that are in conflict with each other potentially.

Courtney Greenberg [00:20:01]:
So I actually think that would be more probate litigation.

Right. If someone's fighting over, okay, well, this is what your spousal share would be, because there was no will, or your will provides something, but the prenups provide something else. And that does happen. I think what happens in a lot of those circumstances is I think you'll see some negotiation, and it kind of gives you a framework of where things are going to shake out. Right.

Maybe somewhere in the middle. Look, if people dig in their heels, maybe you'll go to litigation, but are you going to spend more? What I always say to my clients is, it's not worth spending more than what you could ultimately get. And you need to think about that. Right.

Abbey Henderson [00:20:41]:
Yeah. It's not about the. At some point, cooler minds have to prevail, and it's not about winning or losing. You have to keep in mind. What.

Courtney Greenberg [00:20:51]:
It's a numbers game. It's a numbers game. Right. Like, you're not going to spend more to get to break even or just to, you know, get less.

Abbey Henderson [00:21:00]:
Right.

Just to feel like you won.

Courtney Greenberg [00:21:02]:
Exactly. Which is hard when emotions are very high.

Abbey Henderson [00:21:07]:
Yeah. What else should we know about prenups?

What might surprise someone?

Courtney Greenberg [00:21:13]:
I recently, and I don't fault this person. I had a potential client come to me and they said, I think I want a prenup, but my fiance isn't sure yet. And I said, there's only one prenup between the two of you. You don't each get a separate one.

So if you want it, they're going to have to be willing to sign on to it. I'm not sure if they fully understood that or if what they really meant was they don't know if they want to protect anything, which is fine. Maybe they don't want to. Right. But I think there's one prenup between people.

As I said, I think it makes sense. Even if we're talking about modest, you know, modest assets that we're protecting. You know, if your significant other can't afford an attorney or is not inclined to and you paying for an attorney would help them, provide them ease, it actually will serve you better in the long run because it will help with enforceability on the back end. So I would tell you to spend, you know, that money now because it's the long game that you really want to consider. I do think communication is key.

I have had a case where after I sent a prenuptial agreement, I got an email at 9:30 on a Friday night telling me the whole thing had to be redrafted two weeks before the wedding, otherwise the wedding might be called off. And look, I don't blame him. I just think they were uncomfortable, they didn't talk about it. And you know, I'm not going to say that the person took like such an aggressive approach, but that's how it felt to the receiving party. And so what I say to my, all my clients is just talk to them, try and get on the same page.

There might be things you don't agree about and that's fine. The attorneys can help with that. But communication is key. Right. And that's really important.

Abbey Henderson [00:23:02]:
Yeah, you don't want someone to feel blindsided.

Courtney Greenberg [00:23:05]:
I think the other thing to know is if you're entering a prenup, you are not going to keep your assets private. There needs to be adequate and full disclosures. So when people are like, oh, but I don't want them to know how much is in my bank account, then you're not getting a prenup because you in one of the parts of the enforceability test is was there full and accurate disclosures and without that you're going to hinder yourself. So you know, it's very interesting.

Everyone's like, I want to prenup, I want a prenup. Oh, but not going to disclose what I'm going to inherit. Well, you're okay. You might have a little at risk then. So there's things like that.

Abbey Henderson [00:23:47]:
Interesting. What else is in the enforceability list? And I assume by enforceability that means that if down the road you did get divorced, one party could say this prenup doesn't count effectively.

Courtney Greenberg [00:24:01]:
Yeah, sure. So.

So in Massachusetts, and not every state is different, there's a two part test. Right. The first one is, was the Green, was the prenup apologies fair and reasonable at the time of execution? Okay, so when you execute, that doesn't mean, you know, someone has to split their assets evenly. It just means, was there full and fair disclosures of the other party's net worth?

And if there wasn't, then they might have not been accurately informed. Was there a proper waiver of someone's rights down the road? Do they understand that they were waiving their rights to things that they might have otherwise been entitled to when they signed this prenup? And then generally, was it fair and reasonable at the time of execution? So that's part one.

You do the test at. You look back at the time of execution. The next test is at the time of divorce, essentially. It's not to say that you don't do that test in death, but it's not as common. Right.

So for the second look, you're making sure that the agreement is conscionable at the time of enforcement. So, for example, if this prenup was drafted in a way that, okay, all joint assets would be divided equally, and it was bargained that there were going to be all these joint assets and the marriage was manipulated, that there's not a single joint asset. That creates some questions and some issues here. Right. Because the whole point is, is, you know, you aren't necessarily looking at the statute of what they would have gotten in the event of divorce, but you're considering all the circumstances.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts does not want someone to become a ward of a state while someone's walking away with $100 million because of a prenup. Right. And on public assistance. So it's just a culmination of factors. There's a lot of discretion, I will tell you, in enforcing a prenup because of that.

It's not like, clear black letter. It's just so. It's a little vague, if that makes sense. Sense?

Abbey Henderson [00:26:16]:
Oh, it.

It does make sense. It doesn't necessarily make me feel super comfortable, but it makes sense.

All right, well, we are running out of time. I could talk to you about this and hear all your stories. What would you. If listeners are going to take one thing away from this episode, what would you want them to take away?

Courtney Greenberg [00:26:39]:
Anyone can have a prenup, and it's not just for the wealthy.

I think it's a way to provide you some peace of mind and comfort if your marriage does not play out as you plan.

Abbey Henderson [00:26:54]:
Awesome. Well, this is just. I think it's just a fascinating topic from so many angles, and I so appreciate you spending your time just to give us sort of a beginner's lesson on what they are, who they're for, and some of the sort of interesting issues surrounding them. So thank you so much for joining.

Courtney Greenberg [00:27:16]:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Abbey Henderson [00:27:17]:
Of course.

Wendy McConnell [00:27:18]:
Courtney, if people want to get in touch with you, how would they go about doing that?

Courtney Greenberg [00:27:22]:
So you could look at my law firm.

I work at Rubin and Rudman. It's a firm in downtown Boston, 53 State Street. You could also email me. My email is C as in Courtney Greenberg at Rubinrus, R U B I N Rudman R u d m a n.com or find me on LinkedIn.

Wendy McConnell [00:27:40]:
All right, sounds good.

And Abbey, how about you? How do we get in touch with you?

Abbey Henderson [00:27:44]:
I love to hear from listeners and you can find me in all sorts of places. Email and this is all linked in the show Notes. Email our website.

We have a new website coming soon. LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.

Wendy McConnell [00:28:00]:
All right, sounds good. Well, thanks to both of you and thank you for listening today. Please like, follow and share this podcast with your friends.

Until next time, I'm Wendy McConnell.

Voiceover [00:28:13]:
Thank you for listening to the Wealth Beyond Riches podcast. Be sure to visit our website at www.AbarisFinancialGroup.com and don't forget to click the follow button to be notified when new episodes become available. The opinions voiced in Wealth Beyond Riches with Abbey Henderson are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. To determine what may be appropriate for you, consult with your attorney, accountant, financial or tax advisor prior to investing. Guests on Wealth Beyond Riches are not affiliated with CWM LLC.

Investment advisory services offered through CWM LLC. Kelsey and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.